Discover the journey of Maximilian Rofagha, CEO of Finimize, as he discusses the art of building a global investment community, leveraging fintech content, navigating acquisitions, and scaling without paid marketing. Join Jörn Menninger of Startuprad.io for insights on Finimize's growth, mission, and future directions in fintech.
Executive Summary
In this episode of Startuprad.io, CEO Maximilian Rofagha discusses Finimize, a company offering financial content solutions for enterprises, assisting major banks and startups in engaging retail investors. He covers Finimize's growth, the importance of community, and their data-driven approach. Rofagha reflects on his journey from founding dinedeal.ch to selling Finimize to Aberdeen, emphasizing the importance of a clear mission, timing, and close cash flows in new ventures. He highlights the challenges of scaling without paid marketing and building a robust, engaged community. The episode offers insights into investment climates and fintech industry trends.
Introduction
Welcome to another episode of Startuprad.io! I'm your host, Jörn "Joe" Menninger, and today we have a fascinating conversation lined up with a truly inspiring entrepreneur. Joining us is Maximilian Rofagha, the CEO of Finimize. In this episode, we'll dive into how Finimize is revolutionizing financial content for enterprise clients, leveraging over a billion data points annually to provide daily news, research, and educational guides in 29 languages.
Maximilian shares his journey from founding and exiting dinedeal.ch, Switzerland's fastest-growing startup, to creating a thriving investment community with close to 2 million investors. We'll explore the challenges and strategies involved in building and scaling a community, the advantages of high-quality content, and the nuances of navigating the investment climate. Plus, hear about the impactful acquisition by Aberdeen, and Maximilian's insights on making a mark in the fintech space
So, get ready for an insightful discussion on financial content innovation, the power of community engagement, and much more. Let's dive in!
Watch or Listen Now
Catch the full interview on our YouTube channel or listen on your preferred podcast platform.
The Video Podcast is set to go live on Thursday, August 28th, 2024
Don’t Miss An Episode:
Not enough time? Join our monthly Newsletter on Slack: https://startupradio.substack.com/
The Audio Podcast is set to go live on Thursday, August 28th, 2024
You can subscribe to our podcasts here. Find our podcast on your favorite podcasting app or platform. Here are some of the links to subscribe.
Spotify
Apple Podcasts
Castbox
Global Podcast Network (Formerly NY City Podcast Network)
Good Pods
Interview Highlights
Questions Discussed in the Interview:
Content Engagement: Finimize uses "come for the content, stay for the community" as a guiding principle. How essential is high-quality content in initially attracting users, and how can companies maintain engagement post-attraction?
Acquisition Dynamics: Finimize was acquired by Aberdeen. What factors should companies consider when evaluating potential acquisition offers, and how can these affect their long-term goals and community?
Startup Challenges: Rofagha mentions the unpredictability of marketing channels. What are some non-paid marketing strategies that startups can use to build an engaged user base effectively?
Enterprise Focus: Finimize is heavily focused on providing B2B financial content solutions. How can companies balance their B2B and B2C strategies while ensuring quality and engagement across both sectors?
Data Utilization: Finimize leverages over a billion data points annually. How can companies effectively use data to tailor content to their audience, and what are the potential pitfalls of data-driven content strategies?
Role of Timing: Rofagha speaks about the importance of timing for new businesses. What are some indicators or factors that can help entrepreneurs decide the right time to launch their ventures?
Mission Clarity: A clear mission is emphasized by Rofagha. In what ways can a strong mission statement guide a startup through its growth phases and challenges?
Scaling Globally: Finimize offers content in 29 languages and has an extensive global reach. What are the strategies and considerations when scaling a digital content platform to serve an international audience?
Role of Ambassadors: The use of ambassadors has helped Finimize grow its community. How can other startups effectively mobilize and manage ambassadors to foster organic growth and user engagement?
Key Takeaways
Here are the key points and takeaways from the interview with Maximilian Rofagha, CEO of Finimize, on the Startuprad.io podcast hosted by Jörn "Joe" Menninger:
About Finimize: - Services: Finimize provides out-of-the-box financial content solutions for enterprise or B2B clients, including daily and weekly financial news, research reports, and educational guides in 29 languages. - Clients: Works with major banks, asset managers, and startups, using content as an engagement tool for retail investors. - Data Utilization: Uses over a billion data points annually to ensure content resonates with users. Offers content access via a self-serve platform or API. - Focus Areas: Business development, sales, content, and engineering talent are being sought to grow the enterprise business.
Company Mission and Growth: - Clear Mission: Emphasizes the importance of having a clear mission and being close to cash flows when starting a new business. - Community Building: Importance of high-quality content to build a community — "come for the content, stay for the community."
- Community Engagement: Distinguishes between having followers and building a community, where members actively connect and create value among themselves.
- Organic Growth: Discusses evolving from informal promotion to structured approaches like newsletters and meetups, highlighted by the ambassador program.
Marketing and Investment Climate:
- Marketing Strategy: Weighs the advantages and disadvantages of paid marketing vs. non-paid channels for product development.
- Investment Climate: Host Jörn Menninger raises questions about the unpredictability of the investment market and the impact of tech stocks on the economy.
Acquisition by Aberdeen:
- Journey to Acquisition: Received multiple offers with large financial institutions initially dismissing, then later valuing their high-quality fintech content.
- Acquisition Benefits: More extensive B2B network and leveraging Aberdeen's client base. The acquisition price was undisclosed.
- Mutual Fit Assessment: Involves a nonbinding offer, exclusivity, and personal interactions during due diligence.
Future of Finimize:
-Strategy: CEO admits to not having a grand master plan, focused on growing the enterprise business.
- Scaling: Challenges discussed in finding new growth channels beyond paid marketing and importance of evaluating new distribution channels.
Background of Maximilian Rofagha:
- Educational Background: Studied economics and international relations at the University of Saint Andrews and University of Virginia.
- Previous Ventures: Co-founded Dinedeal.ch, an e-commerce site in Switzerland, which was a quick-growing startup with successful exit.
- Founding Finimize: The idea stemmed from personal experience with financial advisors and information asymmetry. Began with WordPress, then a newsletter, and ultimately scaled with user engagement strategies.
Interested in Working With Us?
Welcome to Startuprad.io™, your premier source for news and insights into the vibrant world of German, Austrian, and Swiss tech innovation! As a decision-maker, you’re invited to dive into our content, featuring Emmy award winners, New York Times bestsellers, and Forbes top lists luminaries. Our platform offers a curated selection of interviews with industry leaders, game-changing entrepreneurs, and influential investors. Our focus on startups around Series A funding ensures that you get exclusive insights into the rising stars of tomorrow. By advertising with us, you tap into an audience that values forward-thinking and impactful partnerships. Join us at Startuprad.io and let your message reach the innovators shaping the future: https://www.startuprad.io/become-a-partner
Our Enablers
Did you know that on average, a blog gets you way more traffic than a social media posts?
We have a special deal with ModernIQs.com, where Startuprad.io listeners can create two free articles per month in less than a minute. You will get the two free articles per month only with the link in the show notes. This is exclusive for our audience https://moderniqs.com/create-an-account/?res_aff=startupradio
Also, our partner DEEP Ecosystems is running a new survey
Shape the Future of European Startup Hubs! 🚀 Share your insights in the Startup Heatmap Europe Survey. Your voice matters—join us in mapping the next wave of innovation! You can participate until 15th of September https://buff.ly/4dtfV3t
Startupraven
A startup's journey can be a tough one, but it doesn't have to feel like you're alone on your quest! Invest in others' success with us by joining our community of entrepreneurs who are building amazing things every day - no matter how big or small their ideas may seem at first glance.
The best way to find investors and cooperation partners for early-stage startups. Sign up here: https://startupraven.com/
About YPO
Founded nearly 75 years ago, YPO is now the world's largest leadership organisation, representing more than 35,000 chief executives across 150 countries. Members are connected by the shared belief that the world needs better leaders, and that their business can be a driving force for good.
Each YPO member has achieved significant leadership success at an early age. They lead businesses and organizations that collectively employ more than 22 million people around the globe and generate over USD 9 trillion in combined revenue
Subscribe & Follow
Don’t miss out on our latest episodes and updates! Follow us on social media and subscribe to our newsletter for more exclusive content: https://linktr.ee/startupradio
About the Guest
Meet Maximilian Rofagha (https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxrof/)
On this episode of Startuprad.io, we are thrilled to welcome Maximilian Rofagha, the CEO of Finimize, to discuss his journey and the remarkable growth of his company. Max is an accomplished entrepreneur with an impressive track record. Before founding Finimize, Max co-founded dinedeal.ch, an innovative e-commerce platform in Switzerland. Under his leadership, dinedeal.ch soared to become the fastest-growing startup in the country, achieving an impressive exit with around $100 million in annual revenue within just three years. Max brings a wealth of knowledge from his academic background, having studied economics and international relations at the University of Saint Andrews and the University of Virginia. His knack for identifying gaps in the market and providing solutions has been evident throughout his career.
Max founded Finimize out of a personal experience encountering the information asymmetry in the financial world. From its inception, Finimize aimed to level the financial playing field by providing high-quality, accessible financial content to both retail and enterprise clients. The company quickly evolved from its humble beginnings on WordPress to a more comprehensive platform, now offering daily financial news, research reports, and educational guides in 29 languages. Finimize's growth has been fueled by a strong community-centric approach, engaging close to 2,000,000 investors, and an estimated reach of almost 40,000,000 members globally. Recently acquired by Aberdeen, Finimize continues to expand its B2B offerings while maintaining its core mission of empowering individual investors with valuable content.
About us: Stay ahead of the curve with Startuprad.io
Welcome to Startuprad.io™, the audio and video podcast, one of the premier sources for news and insights into the world of German, Austrian, and Swiss tech innovation!
If you’re looking for insightful conversations with industry leaders, game-changing entrepreneurs, and influential investors, you’ve come to the right place. Our platform is designed for decision-makers like you, with Nobel Laureates, Emmy Award winners, authors of New York Times bestsellers, and Forbes 40 under 40, Top Capital 40 unter 40, and Forbes 30 under 30, as guests. Dive into our content that offers a curated selection of interviews with current and future movers-and-shakers.
Discover which partnerships are driving growth in the European tech space. We especially pride ourselves, that “You likely never have heard of our guests, but you will in the future.” We interview entrepreneurs early in their journey, to unicorn founders and CEO of NASDAQ listed companies, but our focus is on startups starting around Series A funding. Join us at Startuprad.io, where every conversation inspires new possibilities.
Our origins are the audio podcast, but now we also run a 24/7 internet radio station (Startup.Radio) with partners, a blog (Startuprad.io/blog), a YouTube Channel (Youtube.com/startupradio), a TikTok Channel, eight sub-podcasts, and more than two dozen social media accounts (including for our sub-podcasts) to share curated news 24/7.
Give Us Feedback!
We value your opinion and believe that your feedback is crucial in helping us grow and improve. Whether it's general thoughts on our content or specific feedback on individual episodes, we want to hear from you! Your insights will directly influence the topics we cover and the way we engage with our community. Please take a moment to share your thoughts with us—your voice truly matters at Startuprad.io!
About the Host
Jörn ‘Joe’ Menninger is the founder and host of Startuprad.io. He has worked more than 12 years with household names in consulting, in financial services and startup services, as well as a startup scout. With a passion for uncovering the next big thing in tech, Joe brings deep insights and thought-provoking questions to every interview. Connect with Joe on LinkedIn and Twitter.
Stay ahead of the curve with Startuprad.io
Stay ahead of the curve with Startuprad.io. Join our growing community of listeners, and never miss an episode! Subscribe now and tune in to our Internet Radio Station for more.
Publication Calendar and Upcoming Content
Keep up to date with our upcoming interviews and events by checking out our publication calendar: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=012i27ak525qi3smgjl8v9tbio%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Europe%2FBerlin
Automated Transcript
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:00:02]:
Hello, and welcome, everybody. This is Joe from start up rate dot o. Welcome to another episode of Startuprate.0. This time with the Young President's Organization in Partnership. But I would first like to welcome Max here. Hey, how you doing?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:00:18]:
Very good. Thanks for having me.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:00:21]:
You're very welcome. You are right now recording from Switzerland, Right. But you're a German guy, and you originally built up your company with headquarters in London. Right?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:00:33]:
So my first company was headquartered in in Zurich, and my second company was headquartered in London. Yeah.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:00:41]:
Great. Let me first tell a little bit about the Young Investments Organization founded nearly 75 years ago. YPO is now the world's largest leadership organization representing more than 35,000 chiefs executives across a 150 countries. Members are connected by the shared belief that the world needs better leaders and that their business can drive can be a driving force for good. Each YPO member has achieved significant leadership success at an early age. They lead businesses and organizations that collectively employ more than 22,000,000 people around the world and generate over 9,000,000,000,000 with t, US dollar and combined revenue. That's pretty impressive. We are we have you here today to talk about Finmice.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:01:33]:
That's an investment community with close to 2,000,000 investors involved. And then you also do have a partner at work. And then you estimated you reach almost around 40,000,000 members. Right?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:01:46]:
Correct. Yes.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:01:48]:
Great. So let us first start a little bit at the start. You studied in Saint Andrews and University of Virginia. Can you tell us a little bit about the studies? And, did you play golf somewhere?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:02:02]:
Yeah. So I studied in in Saint Andrews. As you say, it's it's the home of golf. Unfortunately, I never really made use of it. I played once on the old course, and that was it. In hindsight, that was a big mistake. I should have made take taken advantage of that way more. But I studied economics and international relations.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:02:22]:
Those were the two areas I was interested in. It was also kind of interesting for me, a little bit of left brain, right brain. Economics was very mathematic heavy, and then international relations was very, you know, word heavy. And then I did a year abroad in the US, studying at the University of Virginia, same same subjects, which was always a dream of mine to to study in the US for a while. I went to Berlin, a German American high school, and so I always had this connection to the US, and, was was able to do both, thanks to the University of Saint Andrews.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:03:01]:
And you cofound so so so, basically, you studied there. You went through a few different positions. But what is most of interest for me, you cofounded dinedeal.ch, meaning your deal dotch. It's, it's a website, a ecommerce website in Switzerland. It was at one point largest independent ecommerce platform in the country. Mhmm. And at the time, it was the fastest growing start up in Switzerland. And you also, that's another interesting part, exited it with around 100,000,000 in annual revenue 3 years later.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:03:39]:
Can you take us through the story?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:03:44]:
Yeah. So maybe I'll start even earlier. So when I was a or first of all, I'm part of the generation that is the last generation that remembers life before the World Wide Web.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:03:59]:
Me too.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:04:00]:
Yeah. And so I very much remember the day where my parents got access to the Internet, through through those 56 ks modems, etcetera. And it completely changed my life. And I I knew I wanted to do something with the Internet. I was always in school, I was the kid who had who had a website first, and and all this stuff. It was it was always something I was really fascinated by. The reason why I mentioned this is I was never really planning on becoming an entrepreneur. I just this was the way to go and work on the Internet because back in the day, there weren't that many, certainly not in Europe, there weren't that many startups or Internet companies.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:04:42]:
My last year of studying in my undergraduate, I did an internship over the summer at eBay. You know, eBay back in the day was like a really big platform. They owned Mobile. A, etcetera. And it just reminded me of how much I loved the Internet. Before that, I'd I'd checked out, you know, banks and consulting firms, etcetera. But but that final year just really reminded me I love working on the Internet. It's just the most exciting thing you can do.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:05:11]:
And so when I came out of university, I was basically looking to just work on an internet project. And a few folks that I knew in Zurich, they were starting this e commerce business. And they asked me if I wanted to join. And without really thinking about it too much, I just said yes. And I moved to Zurich, and I started the firm with them. And, we started off as a daily deal platform and then later transformed that into a full on e commerce business. We had our own warehouse, our own investing, and to this day have basically transformed it into a full on e commerce business. And then sold that to, one of the largest media houses in in in Switzerland.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:05:58]:
And then interestingly, I saw a press release a couple of months ago. It was just sold to or they just sold it on to, a private equity firm. And so it's still running, it's still growing, it's profitable. And it was a fantastic learning experience for me in how to build a company, how to scale a company, how to scale it back down, you know, the the the full experience. And also one of the lessons that I took from it, was was how important it is to to set the right culture from the start, which is something that I then really try to emphasize at Finimize. So, yeah, it was a wonderful experience with with with many ups and downs as as you can imagine.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:06:44]:
Then I saw on your LinkedIn CV, by the way, linked down here in the show notes, there was something like between almost a year, like, 3 quarters of a year between you leaving Fintech, exiting the community, and, no, exiting and starting the community. We're now talking about Finmines. A lot of entrepreneurs inspire to do an exit. I have a few questions. For example, how did it feel for you to do the exit? What did you do in between? Plus the question very subjective question. How did it feel the last time you walked out of those offices and knowing you won't return as your company?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:07:38]:
Well, to answer your last question, it was actually, it was actually a nice feeling in a way because I felt proud of what we've achieved. I felt we were handing the firm over. We'd recruited, successors who who were more capable than we were in my view and and feels like we handed it over to to pairs competent pairs of hands. And it also felt refreshing because I remember very much that literally the next I think maybe my last day was, like, on a Friday, and then Monday, you know, Monday, it's always, you know, team meetings and, and c level updates, etcetera. And and your calendar just gets so packed that, you basically run out of time to really think oftentimes as yet, you know, it's just you need to be very proactive to manage to manage that so that you do have time to think. I remember that Monday, I felt really excited that I didn't have a single meeting in my calendar. And I started thinking about this idea that then turned into Finimize. I also really got into sports.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:08:56]:
I did a triathlon, with Ironman. So I did a lot of things that I didn't really have the time to do before. So so it it was it was nice because it just felt like a new chapter, is is probably the best way to describe it.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:09:14]:
And what did you do in between, collecting actively ideas for your next venture? Did you travel? Did you spend time with the family?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:09:24]:
So I actually already had the idea in my head for FreedomWise while I was still, working at at at Daim Deal. But I I started to then work on it basically on the on on the Monday, following my last day. But I didn't found I didn't actually create the company, I think until August 2016. So I was kind of dabbling around with it a little bit, doing this sort of closed beta approach. I built a website in WordPress myself, much to the dismay of our engineers today who had to then untangle all the stuff that I that I put together. I sent around, to to my email fintech, say, I'm I'm I'm doing this new project. So I was I was already sort of actively working on the idea of Finimize. It just I hadn't sort of gotten to a point where I was like, this is the thing I wanna work on.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:10:20]:
And then a couple of months later, I did and I created that I created the community that then later on became Finimize.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:10:31]:
I see.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:10:32]:
But I didn't take time off as your question, which which, which I'm in a in a way, I'm I'm I'm not too unhappy about because I was, at the time, still very young. I didn't have any kids or or or anything. And so I had a lot of energy and a lot of, ambition and a lot of, you know, I was willing to sacrifice a lot and commit a lot of my time to it. And I think you only have that kind of mindset and and and freedom, when you are in those sort of, you know, twenties, maybe early thirties. And so I'm glad that I took the initiative right away and grabbed the opportunity.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:11:11]:
You already fintech. Finimize started out as WordPress website. Mhmm. Then you got into newsletter. I'm curious. How did you get your first client and how did you evolve from WordPress to newsletter to actually doing meetups?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:11:35]:
So it all actually happened very organically. And and and the the starting point for all of it really was a personal experience that I had. I went to go speak to a financial adviser. I had you know, everybody tells you when you're young, you need to be saving some money. And so what I did is I had standing order for my salary, and I put it onto a savings account every month. And after a while, I built up some savings. And I went to go speak to a financial adviser saying, okay. Now I have savings.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:12:05]:
What should they be doing with it? And and what she did is she basically, were were was trying to sell me all of the products that they had. And I very quickly realized that this was a sales pitch rather than proper advice, genuine advice. And ultimately, what it boiled down to is that it was an information asymmetry problem. The financial the financial world, the financial institutions have access to all the information and us as retail investors don't have access to that. And coming back to this fascination for the Internet, you know, if the Internet has done one thing, it's reduce and eradicate information asymmetries. You know, it's done that for multiple different industries. If you think about the travel industry, you used to go to a travel agency to book your trip, then along came Expedia, KAYAK, etcetera. They cut out that agent, and now you can access all of it yourself and you could book it yourself.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:13:05]:
And there's multiple different industries where where that's happened. And so I thought, okay. Well, this also has to be possible in the world of financial information. We should be able to give everybody access to this to this world of and universe of financial information. And and that was sort of the the starting insight. So then what I did is I I posted on my Facebook back in the day when people were using Facebook. I posted on Facebook, hey. I'm thinking about doing this, this this finance site, and I wanna the the the idea was I wanna just educate and inform people just 3 minutes a day, super low barriers to entry for them.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:13:47]:
And then over time, people get more and more confident, more and more comfortable. You demystify this real world of finance. It's sort of this concept of, you know, taking baby steps or or tiny habits to start to start having, proper habits that that then will allow you to have good investing habits, etcetera. And so I said, hey. I'm looking for these people who can produce some content for me. I had, like, 3 to 5 people, from my network, who who ended up saying, yes. Happy to do so. We then started to create this content.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:14:19]:
I I published it on WordPress because it was an easy way for me to get the content out. And as you might expect, nobody went on to the website, because nobody found out about it. So we had a website, but we didn't have any traffic. And so so then I said, okay. Well, let me let me just email everybody that I know. And so I I literally like, I downloaded all of my email contacts from every network that I had. And I just emailed people saying, hey. I'm I'm now working on this new project, called Finimize.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:14:53]:
Check it out. Here's the website, fit finimize.com. And, I was using Mailchimp at the time, and I could see how many people had opened the email. I could and then I could see how many people had clicked onto the website. And and I always and and I saw that the open rate was really high, but but nobody really clicked to go to the website. And so one day I said, well, why don't we just take the content from the website and put it all into the email into the email? And that created, the newsletter. And so, I I continued to track the open rates, the click rates, etcetera. And those were from day 1, were really, really high.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:15:30]:
So I knew that the content was good. And I knew that the email was the right format because it's so ingrained into our daily habits that people go check their inboxes. And so that's what then gave life to to the newsletter. So then what gave life to the to to the meetups, which was your second question. That actually happened very organically as well where where I said, I think at the time, we had maybe 50,000 people or something like that who had subscribed to our newsletter at that point. And, I I said, you know, it'd be cool to meet the people. Like, 50,000, I remember, that's like a small football stadium, of people. And I thought that's you know, it's not nothing.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:16:13]:
It would be cool to meet these people. And, and so then we said, hey. We're all gonna meet in a in a pub in East London. And so we all went to this to this pub, and we, I was really surprised. There were, like, 50 people who showed up. And then I said, okay. Well, that's kind of interesting. And so then we I I organized more and, organized it kind of in different locations.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:16:38]:
And then after a while and we would always post about it in the newsletter. And then people started to reach out to us and said, well, hey. Can you do this meetup in Sydney, or can you do this meetup in New York? And and I said, I'd love to, but I can't fly around the world hosting these meetups. And so, if you want though, you can host it. And we created this, ambassador program where people could apply to become a Finimize host, and they could then host the meetup in their city. And that just really then took off. So we were basically hosting a meetup on average every single day of the work week, in all over the world, like in in in Lagos, in Sydney, in LA. Everywhere people were hosting meetups.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:17:28]:
And it just became this this kind of movement, that was really, really powerful. And so it was all about just leaning in. When when when our customers and our users came to us, it was all about just leaning in and and and listening to them and trying to to serve them better. So that's how that all came about.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:17:49]:
I see. So you built a community. I was wondering what strategies and steps did you initially take to to, like, attract and engage the first members of your investment community? And how can you ensure sustainable growth for something? Because a lot of people out there are still talk about building a community, building an entrepreneur community. This, will become a hub and so on and so forth. It looks like a lot of people out there don't know how to build a community.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:18:23]:
So I think the first the first point is to define or clarify what is a what is a community and what's a follower. So I hear a lot of community, they say, yeah, we have a community, but but but really what they were referring to is they have a lot followers on Instagram or on Facebook or whatever. That's not a community. That's that's a company that has people following it, and the and the company broadcasts to their followers. A community is when the members connect amongst each other, and there's a value creation that happens amongst the members. And it's and it has a certain degree of, self organization. There's different there's a different spectrum of how self organized it can be. You know?
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:19:03]:
Like, if you think about, like, a Reddit
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:19:03]:
community, they basically don't have any rules, and you can just publish and do whatever you want. Then you have maybe more strict ones like, for example, Weight Watchers or Alcoholics Anonymous. You know, those are also communities, but they have very, very strict guidelines. We were probably somewhere in the middle where we gave people a lot of freedom, but we were very strict on who we let in as a host, and and and what they were able to do. So we had a real playbook, that we would give them. And so the way that we did it is, we would always, have this roster of of ambassadors. They would apply to become an ambassador with us. We tested for a while, if we could pay them if to then see if we can get more, hosts and more ambassadors.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:20:00]:
And what we realized is that, it actually didn't work. So, it was people had to be genuinely interested and and intrinsically motivated to doing this. And then, so we would have this roster and then we basically designed this playbook and we would, we have community managers who work at Finimize. And those community managers would essentially just manage the hosts and make sure they understand the playbook, make sure that they understand how to run a meetup, make sure to make that they get good guest speakers and stuff like that that create value at the at the events. And then really cool things happened. Like, we we had a, an Indian host, just to give you maybe 2 examples. We had an Indian host, who oftentimes people ask me, you know, who are these people? He he was working at JPMorgan in India, and he was so interested in what we're doing at Finimize that he decided to go on a roadshow through India. So he went to 3 different cities in India to host Finimize meetups.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:21:03]:
All you know, we don't pay. We don't have any kind of budget. It was all a 100% organized by him. And then we had another, community host in, in Hong Kong during the Hong Kong riots. He organized a meetup that was so popular. People even though there were the riots in the city, there was a queue around the entire block to get into the meetup. It's like a rock concert. So a lot of cool things happened, the more that we engaged with the community and let people do, get involved
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:21:37]:
with it.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:21:39]:
Did you write something like a playbook for doing that, Or would you say there is something like an author out there, a blogger, who really understands that stuff and shares good insights for that? Because otherwise, people have to rely on the few sentences you just gave us.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:22:01]:
No. So we we we have a playbook internally, but we never published it, if that's what you're asking. So it's not public. Because to a certain extent, I I guess that was part of the secret sauce of of of how we did it. But I think at the end of the day, it's also not really something that you could duplicate or replicate because it very much depends on the vertical that you're in and the people that you're working with. I think at the end of the day, it's just, you know, building things that people will think are cool and that they wanna get involved with and then figuring out what's the best way forward. And and I think that's that's how I would do it. You know? I think the the the thing maybe that I could that that works for everybody that I would say, was was important is this, you know, it's been talked about a lot, this concept of doing things that don't scale.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:22:51]:
So in the beginning, you know, for for example, some of the first couple 100 users or couple 1000 users that signed up to Finimize, I signed up personally on my iPhone by by going to university campuses. And I would just literally stand in front of the library and I would say to people you know, I would give them a 10 second pitch on what Finimize is, and then I would have them sign up on my on my on my iPhone. And and over time, then, you know, we started to get more and more people to do what I did. But things like that, you know, when I tell the story now to other founders that I meet, they think it's crazy, that that that that's something that they would spend their time on, but that's stuff that worked. So it's it's starting off with with things that don't scale. And then once you see that it works, figuring out how can you now scale it to a larger audience.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:23:48]:
What was what were, like, the biggest challenges that you faced in building and especially scaling your investment community? Because it's always pretty tough to scale a community. And did you did you learn some crucial lessons there?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:24:04]:
Yeah. So we had we had the classic experience of we had we had to always find new growth channels. So it was not that, like, one growth channel got us from 0 to 2,000,000 or 0 to 1,000,000 or 0 to 500,000 even. Like, we we genuinely had to go and okay. So the first ones, I I just described how we got the first couple of 100. Then we then I found some bloggers who would blog about Finimize. That that gave us a couple thousand. Then I started to find, other other newsletters, and we did some partnerships like barter deals.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:24:41]:
Hey. If you talk about us, we'll talk about you. Then that gave us and over time, those partners got bigger and bigger and bigger. You know, we we did we had a big partnership with the Financial Times at one point where we had, like, a full ad in the print version of the Financial Times. And in return, we promoted the Financial Times and finnized and stuff like that worked. And then and then once we've gotten to a couple 100,000 or maybe even a1000000, then we started to do paid marketing as well. So up until that point, everything that we did was 0 paid marketing. We never spent a single dollar or euro on on any kind of marketing.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:25:19]:
It was all nonpaid. But we'd always have to find a new growth channel because once a growth channel worked, after a while, it just the the the percentage increase or the sort of the marginal increase just wasn't meaningful enough anymore. Right? So if you would have a partnership that would get you maybe 500 sign ups, if you're at a 1,000,000 sign ups, getting 500 is not really worth your time anymore. So you need to find a different distribution channel that would get you access to maybe 50,000. And so it's this constant reevaluating and searching for new distribution channels.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:26:00]:
Would you recommend a new entrepreneur also to try at first to scale without paid advertising, paid marketing? Because if it works unpaid, it'll work paid as well, but it doesn't necessarily hold true the other way around.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:26:20]:
Yeah. I think, I think the more well, the there's there's other founders who I know who who did paid very early on, and I think maybe then you you increase the velocity of your product development because you get learnings faster. On the flip side, you also you know, doing paid marketing, especially today, and it's very community, and it's a discipline of itself. So I think you can you can really go down the rabbit hole of doing paid marketing, because maybe you're not your CAC isn't the right one, and then you try to optimize it. And then all of a sudden, you're you're spending 80% of your time on on doing paid marketing. And so if you do the nonpaid channels, it's more hustling. It's it's more it's more creativity involved, but it's also, I think, a more durable way of building the business because, as we all know, you you just cannot be dependent on paid channels. And sometimes what I what I witnessed with with with founders who just start up, a new business is they immediately go to paid marketing.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:27:34]:
That's distribution is paid marketing in their head. And I think that's the that's the mistake, and sometimes people aren't willing to hustle. You know, go I literally, like I said, was standing in the rain with an with an iPhone of man to sign up people. That's, I think, the kind of hustle that can allow you to grow without spending money. And sometimes that's necessary.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:27:58]:
That's actually a picture that'll stick. When somebody asks me what you remember from the interview from Max from Fintech, I say, well, I imagine him standing in a lie in front of a library
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:28:11]:
in the rain holding up his iPhone, giving 10 second pictures.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:28:15]:
And I and it was like the like, we were at a university, and they they they came to us and kicked us off the campus because they said we don't have a permit to be on there. So there's a lot of fun fun experiences there.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:28:29]:
And one point is to get new members of your community. The other piece is to keep the members of your community. How do you continuously provide value to your community members? And how do you keep them engaged and active? Because I realized with a lot of social approaches, there's a wave really at the start and then it kind of tears out a very long way. Community websites, they're very active in the very beginning and then they become a kind of, digital graveyard because nothing is up to date anymore. How do you keep that going?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:29:14]:
I mean, for us, it was all so the starting point for us was always the content. So the content that we produced in house, that we then distributed through our newsletter, and then later on, we distributed it through our app and through our website, that was what got people in the door. So we always had this thesis of come for the content, stay for the community. And so people would come in and they because they were genuinely finding value in the fintech. Because what we were doing and what we still, to this day, are doing is, we're creating high quality investing information at an affordable price point. So before Finimize, there was 2 options you had. 1 was you could buy a very expensive subscription of Bloomberg or something like that, and and you could get access to high quality investing information. That's prohibitively expensive for most retail investors.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:30:04]:
The other option is it's free. You go to free channels like social media or maybe on Google, you'll find something. But the problem with those is, on social media, there's a lot of junk out there. And and for the for the Google searches, you're gonna find content that's monetized through affiliate links. And so it's never gonna be unbiased, and it's never gonna give you genuine, real, high quality, information. And so we always want to be high quality investing information on an affordable price point. And so because of that, people came to us, and then we said, alright. Now you're you're part of a community.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:30:42]:
And so one of the things that we always found in the product was if we can get someone to who consumes content to engage with the community, they're 3 times more likely to be retained. So that's why this thesis of come for the content, stay for the community has always been this guiding principle of Finimize.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:31:05]:
I'm I was I'm not trying to bother you with individual questions about different stocks right now because I don't think that makes sense, especially seeing our publication calendar, which is jam packed already. And there is more than a month between the recording and the actual publication, so we're now in early August. But can you give us a little bit broader overview of what we see right now as the investment climate especially turning to equities in Europe and the US. Because on the one hand side, you had first corona, then the Russian invasion, then the inflation following it. Then you had the AI hype with big companies, especially Nvidia, pulled ahead way above all the others. And now there there seems to be this hype is teetering out and what's next. Or does it does it make a comeback at 4?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:32:05]:
I think it was, maybe Warren Buffett who said, if if the 4 if if someone gives you a forecast, it tells you more about the forecaster than about the forecast itself, I e, nobody is able to forecast what will happen. And so if you think about the biggest investors and the best investors in the world, whether it's a Warren Buffett or recently I saw an interview with, the founder of Coto, the private equity firm. The founder also said, when asked what what's the forecast? He said, you know, happy to give you forecast. And I know what I know for sure is that my forecast will not happen. And so with that disclaimer, I mean, it's it's at the beginning of the year so we hosted a maybe that's an interesting starting point. We we host every year, in December at the start largest retail investor conference in the world online. Last year, we had Ray Dalio and Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan, as our keynote speakers. And I asked them all both, you know, where where are things going, etcetera.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:33:12]:
And Jamie Dimon was the one who was probably the most skeptical about a soft landing in the US. It does seem like now we are achieving a soft landing. Today, on the day of the recording, the Bank of England cut their interest rates for the first time since the pandemic. The Fed this week has indicated that they're going to likely also cut their interest rates in September. And so it does seem like the soft landing is happening. On the flip side, you know, a lot of the a lot of the growth, as you said, has been happening through these tech stocks. And so if you if you were to take the S and P not not weighted, but but but actually equal weighting, I e, how many companies there are of the 500, you get very, very different results, which shows you that this weighting really goes in favor of the tech stocks and probably distorts the picture of how the financial economy is doing. I e, the other firms are not doing spectacularly well, but the average is being pulled up or pushed up, because of these tech stocks.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:34:28]:
And so I guess there's a question of, you know, how much of this was, how much of this tech run, bull run will cool down. I think this week, Microsoft reported earnings, disappointing cloud cloud results. And so perhaps there's a cooling down, but it seems like we're achieving the soft landing, perhaps a little bit of a bubbly feel to all of this that that might cool down. And then and then I guess we'll have to see what's next.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:35:06]:
Talked about what's next. You exited with Finmice to it's pronounced Aberdeen, but it's spelled a b r d n Yes. All in noncapital letters. I was wondering what was the point they approached you? Was it just the right time you were looking to exit? Was it or was it just, an offer you just couldn't refuse? Talking like the godfather here.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:35:41]:
So it wasn't it was, it was definitely not a we we were not looking to sell. We were not running any kind of a process or anything. It was an interesting time where for whatever reason, we started to get more and more and more approaches of of, potential acquirers. It's interesting. When we started off, I think a lot of people thought, you know, financial fintech, you know, why why would you do that? And we would speak to big financial institutions and say to them, hey. You you can buy our content through licensing agreements, and you can use it. And they always said, no. We don't really need it.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:36:26]:
We have our own team. Like, our content team is larger than your whole company. And and the funny thing is now with most of them, we actually ended up working. And so there seems to be this there seems to have been this realization that, you know, I always say con producing good fintech, and I'm sure you know this as well, Joe, because you produce fintech. The everybody can produce content. It's like everybody can produce music, but doesn't mean that you produce good music. And it's the same with content. You know, it's the barriers because of all the tools that that exist, the barriers are so low, everybody can produce content.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:37:06]:
And everybody thinks, thinks it's an easy discipline. But actually, if you wanna do it well, if you wanna have high engagement rates measured by open rates, measured by click rates, measured by retention, etcetera, etcetera, That's that's a very difficult thing to do. And so, anyway, we that's that's an area that where we really became the masters, and we really became the number one financial content solution in in the market. And so I think that's perhaps also what would cause people to to to look at us and say, hey, you know, we'd love to have this discipline in house, because people started to appreciate. And and of course, it also coincided and and was and was propelled by the the rise of the retail investing, who we obviously catered to, and we and we wanna inform them. You know, started off with new tooling, you know, robo advisors, brokers, etcetera. And and now you're seeing it continue where BlackRock, Apollo, all those guys are basically saying, you know, for us to achieve our AUM targets, we need to get the retail investors on board. Otherwise, we can't get it.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:38:11]:
Institutional isn't isn't gonna cut it for us anymore to really get to that next scale level. And so I think that's perhaps what what what drew a lot of people to us. And then Aberdeen specifically, you know, made sense for us because we, we were able to grow our b to b network through them, because, obviously, they have a huge client base in the financial world. And we can say, hey. You know, because you're an Aberdeen client, you now also get access to to to some of the Finimize solutions, etcetera. And so it just made sense, number 1, in terms of what we wanted to achieve, what they wanted to achieve, and then and then then build build a build a future from there.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:38:57]:
I haven't seen a price that you ever disclosed, the price tag of the acquisition?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:39:03]:
No. We did not. No. Mhmm.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:39:06]:
We've been talking I've been writing down 2 pieces We were saying you're talking to a big company and they say, well, our content marketing team is bigger than your whole company, I would have replied, well, that that's a hint. You can downsize them.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:39:24]:
Yeah. True.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:39:26]:
I'm sorry. That was pretty mean. And AUM, for everybody who's not from asset management background, it means assets under management, which is a crucial size for an asset manager. It means how much money from other people they are managing, administrating. And depending on what what kind of investment you do, it's very crucial to how much money you can earn because usually the fees are calculated in a percentage point of those assets. Correct. I was I have a lot of questions on how, you really evaluated Aberdeen. But we're running a little bit short on time.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:40:10]:
We only have 15 minutes left with the for the whole recording time here. So I was wondering, could you give us a broad overview of the steps you took as a due diligence to evaluate your potential buyer? What you did there? There. Like, you look through, I'm sure, through the financials, a lot of talks with the management team, get getting getting a feel of how they're thinking, what they're focused on, and so on and so forth. And did you also have a list there, a checklist?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:40:48]:
Yeah, I mean, I think selling a company is a very intensive process that typically takes somewhere around 6 months. And you basically don't do anything else. And that's how it was for us. And in in these 6 months, I mean, you the way it typically works is, excuse me, you you typically get a nonbinding offer. So when someone approaches you, then they say, yeah. We're interested in in buying you. You you share a little bit of information with them, and then they can decide, yeah. We are interested in in in pursuing this, or no, we're not interested in pursuing this.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:41:31]:
And so this is sort of a the first milestone where they give you a non binding offer that says, hey, we're interested. Maybe they they give you the price, maybe some other terms in there. It's in the VC world, it's very much like the term sheet. Right? So the term sheet in and of itself is an indicative piece of paper, but has no value. And then once you sign that, you basically go into again, very analogous to the VC world. You you basically give exclusivity to to that partner. And, and then they you basically open the kimono is what we always said. And they and they really dive into everything.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:42:15]:
Oh, just picturing myself to open the kimono here. Sorry for the big
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:42:22]:
So we opened our kimono, so you can picture that now. And
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:42:29]:
and and, as in doing all of this, you you get to
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:42:34]:
know each other, obviously. Because it's not just you you don't just, you know, you know, obviously, you have a data room and you have a lot of meetings and work, but you also go for dinner with the people that that that that are looking to buy you. They wanna get to know you personally. You wanna get to know them personally. And you see, you know, is this a fit or not? And so I think that's really how the whole thing develops and how you get a feel for, how you get a feel for the other side. And this obviously goes both sides. Right? So that's how it worked.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:43:13]:
I'm sure there are a lot of checklists out there to do something like that. But as I said, we run a little bit short on time, so let us go into our outlook. You you always been talking about financial content here. What do you offer for Fintech Financial Services Companies? Well, maybe for Fintechs because they don't have, like, a pretty pretty big content team there. For what what could they get from you?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:43:46]:
So we offer to to enterprise clients or or b to b clients like Fintechs or or or financial firms is an out of the box solution for financial content that, where the library spans from daily financial news, weekly financial news, insights, research reports, educational guides, the full suite. We produce, something like 80 to a 100 content pieces every single day in 29 languages now. And the reason why B2B clients work with us is because they use our content as an engagement tool for their retail investors. So we work with some of the biggest banks based out of the US, some of the biggest asset managers based out of Asia, and then also, you know, young startups who understand that content will help, a, be an acquisition driver and b, be a retention driver for their product. And with us, you get it all out of the box. It's tested. We you know that it's engaging because we collect over a 1,000,000,000 data points every year from our own community to make sure that our content does resonate. And, you can either pull the content through a self serve platform or through our API, and and and worry about, you know, building the the rest of your product and and making sure that you're best in class for for when it comes to content.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:45:10]:
Mhmm. Or this, I assume you're not only using AI, but also people. Are you looking for talent?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:45:19]:
Yes. We're always looking for for, talented people to join us on this journey. I would say specifically, in the business development sales side. So if you're interested in selling solutions to, financial institutions, reach out to us, as well as on the on the content and engineering side.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:45:43]:
I would like to close with 2 questions for you personally because you're a serial entrepreneur. You already made 2, assumingly pretty good assets. What would be the next steps for you?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:46:00]:
I mean, right now, I'm I'm very much focused on on continuing to grow, minimize, and, and and specifically, get our enterprise business onto onto the next level. We obviously have their b to c, but one of the key focus areas for us has been b to b. And what I will do beyond that, honestly, don't know yet. It's I I'm not the kind of person who has a grand master plan. So when I, when I did the ecommerce business, never would have thought that I would get into retail. I I at the re at at our online retail business, I I built up the whole supply chain warehouse side of things. Up until that point, I've never even stepped foot into warehouse. So I I would have never thought I would be in retail.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:46:51]:
Equally fintech, I would have never thought I'd be in finance. And so I I I when when I when I see something that interests me, I try to lean in, and I try to give it a 100%, and then hopefully good things good things will happen. And so that's how I've been leading leading my life, approaching it. And as a result, I don't know. I don't know what will happen.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:47:15]:
And the final question, do you have demonstrated a pretty good sense for business with what you did. Right? So I would be curious as closing question. If you would start a business, like, today or in the next few months, what kind of business would you be looking for to start?
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:47:41]:
That's a good question. I mean, I think I think the the number one thing that I think has been a driving force also for Finimize is from day 1, we had a very clear mission of here's what we're trying to achieve. I think that historically, that's been more of an American, approach to to building businesses. I think now in Europe, people are starting to understand how how crucial a mission is because it helps you get the best talent. It helps when when times are tough, it helps you get through it as a lot of secondary benefits to it. So I think having a clear mission. And then I think the other thing that that there's 2 other things that I would add. The the second one is, this this concept that that other people have talked about at length as well already is, you know, the analogy of of of of surfing.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:48:37]:
You know, when you're an entrepreneur, you're essentially a surfer and you need to find the right wave, but you need to find a wave. And so that wave, when it comes, you need to jump on it and give a 100 and 50% to make sure that you stay on top of the wave. But if you don't have the wave, that basically means in business terms, you got the timing wrong. So there there needs to be some sort of a zeitgeist community that you're hitting. And then or VCs often ask for this, you know, why why now? That's I think some that's maybe another way of thinking about it. And then the third the third piece is very much also now in this post zero interest rate world, being being close to cash flows very early on is I think a healthy and and good way of of approaching a business from day 1. Not not not not maybe a couple years in as it was during the during the area, the zero interest rate policy. Those those would be the the the three points I think that that I would look for.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:49:48]:
Only thing left for me to say is thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you as guest. Thank you for the Young Presidents Organization for helping us to get this interview. Best of luck, and let us know when you do your last step. This was admittedly one of the longest interviews we did so far this year. Thank you very much, Max.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:50:08]:
Thank you.
Jörn "Joe" Menninger | CEO and Founder Startuprad.io [00:50:10]:
Have a good day. Bye bye.
Maximilian Rofagha | CEO Finimize [00:50:12]:
Bye bye.
留言