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Entrepreneur Tools #4 — How to build a tech team
You need to educate the US companies on what is possible and not possible in an employment contract in Germany.Tim Heathcote, Tech Recruiter
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Entrepreneur Tools
This is a series, within Startuprad.io’s podcast and YouTube blog. We meet a lot of people and of course, we talk with some of them about the typical entrepreneur problems. Sometimes an entrepreneur solves known problems in a very systematic way or can help us to find solutions to typical entrepreneurs’ problems. We will talk to him or her and bring you these recordings as entrepreneur tools. We are looking forward to your feedback.
The Entrepreneur
Tim (https://www.linkedin.com/in/timheathcote/) is an English Tech Recruiter based in Frankfurt helping startups find talent in in the tech space. He has founded Rebel Soul Recruitment (https://rebelsoulrecruitment.com/).
The number one complaint of US companies, setting up shop in Germany, are the number of holidays.Tim Heathcote, Tech Recruiter
The Video Interview is set to go live on June 1st, 2021 at 17.00 CET
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The Audio Interview Podcast
The audio podcast will go live shortly before the video podcast.
Here is a little warp-up: The recruiter must:
Understand the company and the values of the company
Know what technical skill is required for the role
Understand the incentive structure of the company hiring
Get familiar with the legal restrictions for an employment contract
Set up a hiring process (this step may also be at #7, depending on your CTO and his/her network).
What are you testing for
How do you test it for
How do you measure it
Use the network of your CTO to build the tech team
When the tech team gets larger, you need to rely on a headhunter at one point
More ideas on tech recruiting
How to build a stellar tech team and attract top tech talent | Sifted https://buff.ly/3q0pw8H
Five Things to Focus On When Building Your Technology Team https://buff.ly/3g01XcS
How to build a Tech team https://buff.ly/3wNXY9X
Top Book Picks by 28-year-old serial entrepreneur Peter (AL)
Principles by Ray Dalio https://amzn.to/38ZgmB7
The man who solved the market https://amzn.to/2SZ6Jgw
What You Do Is Who You Are: How to Create Your Business Culture https://amzn.to/2SYi00x
The little prince https://amzn.to/3c6hWDm
Friedrich Nietzsche’s Books:
Ecce Homo: How One Becomes What One is https://amzn.to/2HSuAYD
Thus Spoke Zarathustra: A Book for All and None https://amzn.to/37W2qGL
Herman Hesse’s Books
Siddhartha https://amzn.to/2PpJzO3
Steppenwolf https://amzn.to/32pSPqI
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The Interviewer
This interview was conducted by Jörn “Joe” Menninger, startup scout, founder, and host of Startuprad.io. Reach out to him:
Transcript
[0:00] Music.
[0:08] That I owe you were podcast and YouTube blog covering the German startup scene with News interviews and Live Events.
[0:23] That are all.
[0:29] Radio.
[0:31] Startups and tech companies I’d like to welcome you back to another episode of our entrepreneur tools will we talk to entrepreneurs.And service providers about problems entrepreneurs are facing and how we can solve them as you’ve seen from the headline already we are talking today about how to buildcheck team is actually the headhunting and the personality Court therefore like to welcome back to hey how you doing.
[1:00] Hey I’m good thanks Joe and yourself I’m doing great thank you it’s a lot of work as always if you want to be not for no but I’m happy to do that and I love the flexibility,Targettalking about entrepreneurship we may tell the people that down here in the show notes that is linked to your last interview where we talked about headhunting building upteams how to head on what to look for yet here they are all the stuff go down here in the show notes and there you’ll find somethingplus now this time we are talking about how to build a tech team best from scratch so thethe optimal idea every entrepreneur has a mild well I have an idea of the power point out of that I raise 10 million with that and then I come to you and with all the tech team that’s how it works right that it’s not simple yeahokay so we are talking about building a tech team doesn’t necessarily mean anon location tag team by the tag team that has to work together and I do believe since you’re the head under you more focused on the people and less on the technicalskills they admit they have to have them that but that’s something you cannot prove like in that that is something.
[2:23] The CTO or the founder would need to prove so what is the kind of Louisville what are the kind of blueprintyou would need in order to really start head hunting for example a entrepreneur approaches you and says a 1/2 you know what it I am short of the city oh can you help me.
[2:44] Mmm Yeah I mean that that can be the case absolutely I mean it really depends on.You know where the company is in terms of its Journey right and what sort of size it’s at so I mean if your.
[2:59] Obviously if someone comes to me as a founder and they want to see Tio then and this is perhaps there.First or second employee then then that’s a completely different search to an organization that.Perhaps has been going you know one two three four years has.Funding you know series a b and want to see tou know what is what is already there you know is there a tech stack,decided on is there is there a product you know we is this a software startup or is this an e-commerce startup so obviously the situation differs.And in terms of how would I would approach it in depending on the situation of the startup.Could he could he give usone or two examples are let’s say classical cases eCommerce data then something really detect working with AI itsboth startups are vain you will focusing a little bit more on the viewer startups here even though we have scaled upsetbiggest tech companies here they diffuse well.
[4:16] Because I do believe that something entrepreneur needs to think about need to worry about because you first,few hires they are very important for the success of your company and therefore you should really,think it through so how would you approach let’s say a team of two or three founders and they looking for CTO let me know it would so first of all I mean they need to.
[4:45] Always always think about why right why you hiring this this person what does this person need to do.
[4:55] What skills does this person need to have.You know and then I can look at the human skills of okay well what what are the values and behaviors that this person needs to.Encapsulate to be the right person for this,for the starter because that’s also important it’s not just the you know the right people for the right role but for the right companies well so these are the things that need to be taken into consideration theand you know the yes the skills the experience but also the.You know the human side that the values in the behaviors of this person so.I would say that if somebody’s coming to me you know what they need to be clear on you know what what what helps me is that you’ve got to have.Number of things fixed right the first thing is just as you would present for a pitch I need to have the.The company presentation right you know what is your what is your company about you know what what problem you’re trying to solve.How do you solve it who is your who your customer is going to be what is the market.
[6:13] That you know so that I can actually go and find those people right the icons I can present this and get people excited I need to understand.What it is that you doing so I can.
[6:26] In entice and sort of inspire a candidate because you know you probably not going to be able to do it with money at this stage as a start-up you know you you’re not an Enterprise clients so you need to,sell to people’s emotions and they’re getting bought into the to the vision and the purpose.So we need that we need to know what your what your company does and.Also then I talked about this is what are the company values if you have them right so so what.
[6:58] What are you looking for as a person you know you looking for someone.
[7:03] You know what could it be right could it be you no Integrity could it be gratitude could it be.Entrepreneurial could it be team’s teamwork you know whatever those values are what do you want me to.
[7:19] To find you know how does somebody had you identify some to fit your company.You know then that we need the we need the job description what do you want this person to do.
[7:30] You know what they’re going to be are they actually going to be is it is their role setting up the architecture and you know of the tech stack you know deciding on the you know the,all the tech right you know what are the main programming languages you want to use what are the you know you going to be you know you’re going to be.This is cloud mean it’s got to be cloud-based in this day and age is it going to be Google.Is it going to be is yours it going to be AWS these are the things that you want to.
[8:06] To think about before perhaps you get somebody in place you know because the there’s going to be pros and cons to each one so,you know those are things that you need to consider is this person going to be are they also going to be Hands-On they probably should be at this stage if you just hiring a.You know this is you first kind of candidate you don’t want someone that just wants to design and an architect right you need someone who’s going to roll their sleeves up and actually get their hands dirty and write some code.Great because you.Yeah they have to be able to do more than how they’re going to be exactly right and and and then you you also want this person probably too.To lead and to develop and Coach people because you probably haven’t got the money to hire star players at the moment right you probably going to have to do it with.Young hungry you know enthusiastic Junior candidates right not all but some to get people kind of.You know utilize that Manpower and.Inspire them and drive them towards completing a vision which will be getting your prototype developed as quickly as possible.
[9:22] And so you know those are all things you’ve got to take into consideration.You know regardless of the textiles and then I said you know what about the you know also what about the.
[9:38] Financial compensation what are you what are you paying this person right what is in your budget you know what you’re going to do it through Julie through salary you can do it through equity.And you know what does that look like.And you know what you’re going to do it sort of bonus you know related you know Milestone related okay you know reach a and you receive,the X right these are all ways of doing it the other thing I think is.Have you got an employment contract right this person is going to be an employee so have you got one is it.
[10:13] Is it good has it been checked by someone because this is a classic mistake that.
[10:21] Startups kind of get you know they’re they’re going through the process of hiring people and then they get to the office today to send an offer to a candidate and the candidate projects because they you know they look at the contract and they think my God you know this is,this is not compliant and there are things in here that shouldn’t be near and then it’s kind of difficult to move back you know to go back from there.
[10:42] And so you know it’s important to get things like that fixed up front so that you’re not kind of then trying to you know swim against the tide and sort of reverse the situation when the kind of the bad taste is already there.And let let me let me quickly,get an idea of like a little wrap-up for the audience what we talked so far about my understanding is first you need to understand,the company the values of the company to pitch deck and they’re kind of get a fit.
[11:18] For the CTO in terms of environment you need to know the technical skills they need to provide and the incentive structure.They are going to put in place,D talk to them about the incentive structure what is market confirm what is not exactly yes I would so so this would be what I want to have at the beginning right so I usually whatin the solution I set up an offer to my clients I get them to provide this information from so these are things that you need to think about before we have the first conversation.Okay and then you do then we’ll set up an alignment call so this is where I’ll consult the.The client and find out from them okay so what is there you know what are they looking for right is this feasible or it is a unicorn.IsYou know it’s the salary in line with Market expectations for someone if this caliber or not you know how is their employment contract to the things in there that I think.You know shocking and need knee Rewritten so yeah that this all comes through in a point the parking content I would be interested.
[12:28] What is stupid stuff you’ve seen in Employment contract something likeyou’re not permitted to wear cowboy hats and and the office or something yeah yeah I mean you know things like you know unreasonable unreasonable notice periods you know things that are,you know I’ve seen this done you know I’ve seenthings that on notice period so you want to leave your job and you have notice period of something like 12 months oldonly at the end of a quarter or something like that yeah I mean exactly you could have you know six six months for example you know that’s a long time you know or you know perhaps if it’s sort of like one day for exampleyou know you also sort of get people you know and there were there obviously restrictions in Germany you know Germany’s are different.Country with different employment regulations right and you can’t.
[13:24] You know this is sometimes difficult when you get companies from the US who are setting up entities in Germany and theyneed to be educated on you can’t have that in the contract you know there are things like you know,paternity leave maternity leave are you know are it’s legal here and there is a certain and you have a minimum minimum amount ofthe caishen days twenty something I know in the u.s. it’s quite common to have just like 10 PTO and in Germany when you’re sickcure sick if you’re sick on vacation you can even get your vacation days back so it’s completely different and it totally get if there’s somebody coming over from the US.That’s everything I have to offer them or dang it exactly so there are you know there are things that are you need to be understood and put into the contract here and that is also you know a service that I would,I would provide to a client what is the most,frequent complaint you’re getting from like us based companies when when you have decayed them,on the German employment laws because a lot ofit is a track in some Louis but a lot of is is also by judges so it’s always difficult and they’re different ruling on different things but basically there is like a big.
[14:50] Fundamentally we could build on and that’s what we talked about likely to requirements management Dave Suffocation maximum work hours mandatory.Maternity leave yet I already had our that’s all the things that an employer cannot get around in Germany but.What is like the number one complaint from front companies I think holidays is is one that’s quite common right I mean you know in the u.s. you don’t get as many there aren’t as many you know mandatory you know,holidays that are given to you know employees and so it’s sometimes.
[15:28] You know difficult to explain to to you know to clients coming from the US you want to set up in Germany about you know the number of holidays that employees get here.
[15:38] And I just found a list here and it says that on averagein the state of baden-württemberg many people would know for example for Stuttgart the headquarter of companies like.For sure Mercedes and something like this on average employees get 28.8 as I said it’s never exhort 29 days,of vacation and in total with the public holidays they’re gone for almost 41 days within a year.
[16:14] Yeah and then you know then there are things like sick days as well right you know there are probably an average in Germany you know 10 sick days per year.You know so then you looking at what’s that now we’re looking at 50 50 days out of 250 working days so that’s all and that Pamela with the regulations.In other countries but basically here in Germany the parents can get sick leave on their shop on their child so basically if the child is sick the mom gets a paid day off to take care of her.
[16:51] Kids children however you want to call it also fathers can do this and there is an upper limit to that but that’s also legally exactly exactly yeah so so look there are there are differences and I think you know the u.s. is isyou know more of a hire and fire culture right and that’s that’s that’s possible to do so there are stronger you know definitely workers rights Hearing in Germany.And we may just add that it’s very very difficult to get ridof an employee if the employee doesn’t want that it’s usually involving either long tries in front of employment courts are by excavationword of very high payment that that’s usually the case but now we got this out of the way and showedhow awesome it is to be employed in Germany and I lost all of that since I’ve been trying out for myself so I don’t have even a single paid day off don’t worry guys you’re not alone that’s life of an entrepreneur,we got those sitio got him or her.Or X how do you call it hip her hired and.
[18:05] Non-binary non-binary person and then what’s next how do you then help the startup to buildfor adopt the company because I would assume CTO he knows some coders he knows some Engineers he knows some people and is this usuallyway the first one or two employees get on bordered or is it something that then the entrepreneur said no we actually don’t want that we take we take people from wherever and just throw together a team,I can be absolutely I mean to be honest with you I think especially in the early days there will they will generally be.
[18:47] Will generally be a lot of hiring that’s done from their own network right so even with the CTO it could very well be theand you know the CTO is actually a friend of the founders right they probably have come from industry so they’ll generally know somebody that is you know technews,Tech minded right and I see this a lot actually that there’s a number of.Startups that kind of they they pick their sort of founding team based on the strengths of those people so they might be somebody that is a.
[19:23] You know if it’s an inshore tech company right so they’ll be somebody that is the kind of insurance expert.As a co-founder they’ll be somebody that is the the tech expert as a co-founder.Take care of the actual the product Tech that they’re building the the software or the platform you know and then they might be someone who’s comes from marketing or sales right that will be the.You know the kind of the chief sales officer or chief marketing officer so that’s one way of doing it is that you know Founders will have already thought about therestrengths and weaknesses and kind of pick their core team to start with two to provide a right balance of this and,so that may continue for the for the early hires right that they then know somebody the ctOS you said they’ve worked with someone they know and trust and they get that person into start and this this can happen using your own network with you dowith your courage I’m honestly in terms of there is there is part of the,team forming time that is just not there.Teens can perform faster if the people already know each other is that something you would recommend or say ah and you have to look at this time I would write in the in the beginning I would recommend.People.
[20:51] Using their own network to start with and I actually don’t very often work with companies Beyond us you know.Below sort of like five employees right because they’re generally they don’t have the money and I wouldn’t actually recommend you know I’m right.I work with clients that I believe I can provide,value to and it’s not that can’t provide that we value but it’s they need to be very careful about their spend at the moment and so if they can find someone through their own network great do it.
[21:28] And as you said right but I was also translating into your own expense of headhunterwell I mean no I wouldn’t I don’t even believe that I don’t think I am but I could go into that later but I I think in general it’s a service that is,it can be it’s a cost right and so as an entrepreneur and and so you know that’s just started up you’re looking to,save money right you being prudent and if you can Outsource something Outsource itif you can do it yourself do it yourself you know if it’s.If it’s sort of efficient to do that and if you can find someone from your own network as opposed to paying a Headhunter for it and have a good good result then great do it.But obviously as that company scales.You can’t keep doing that right you only know so many people you only have so many first connections second connections and there’s a finite amount of people that you can do and obviously a finite.As it gets bigger and bigger you need to.
[22:36] Become you need more experts and you don’t know those experts you can only know so many people so you start having to go outside of your circle and that’s where someone like myself comes into I have a larger Network andhave a different network and I can find.People and test people that you don’t have the time to do because you’re trying to grow your user base you trying to get investment that’s not what I’m here to do on higher to find you Talent so.You know you go to experts like me if I would now get a little bit further and above for would beget get familiar with the restrictions with legal restrictions for employment contract getting employment contract for your Tech employee for your city oh,next one would be take number five would be take the network,off the CTO to get Tech talent and then I would now deduce somewhere around like,two digit employees something a company Route 10 employees that is the time you can reallythink about an external Headhunter because on average as you’ve seen there is an end to the network of the founders and then you need,external help in further developing detective right.
[23:56] Could I could I just take it back a little Joe and just to you know you said okay so don’t use a Headhunter when it comes to you know I’ve said okay so I can’t you did it’s not what you said I was saying,a perhaps,might be better to use your own network to start with that’s fine but what I would consider is perhaps using getting advice on and this is where,I help startups is okay what about your hiring process right so okay I perhaps haven’t.You don’t necessarily need me to find your people okay you’ve got your network that’s fine but okay what is your hiring process right,what are you testing for how are you testing for it how are you measuring it what about your recruitment process right how you reducing.
[24:49] Unconscious bias do you know unconscious bias is how you test you know these are all things that I can help you with and and that’s,sorry and that was exactly the point I was going at because if your company scales to like a certain degree my personal experiences something like if I have itif I had a team of 10–15 people I would approximately know what they’re doing but after thatyou need to process also to get you and please on board as you said recruiting but also what’s very important with many startups to get is the onboardinghow do you get people in the team how do you show them their duties how do you make the panel up with report this to that report this to that and if you see thatstand up a room or something like this that is something people need to think about entrepreneursneed to think about and it’s very dry it’s very boring but they are a lot of good examples,out there for this stuff and do you have some recommendations or can you provide me with a few links that it can look down here in the show notes for people just to start.
[26:00] Thinking about this a hiring process hiring policy onboarding process something like this,sure yeah I mean I mean so this is what I designed I designed for this purpose so I designed a plug-and-play hiring solution that would help startups,design a fair a consistent robust,hiring process of checking candidates on their using data and values in the hiring process right so.
[26:35] You want to hire a,you know a front-end developer with you know JavaScript and react okay well how are you going to go about that so you know how are you going to test for those technical skills do you have your own technical tests or do you need to use,platform for those technical tests how you going to okay so you’ve got your values how do you check for those values.You don’t just ask are you entrepreneurial yes or no you know where’s the evidence how are you going to do that wait how are you going to record it.What about you know how are you going to reduce,biases you know a lot of people and I’ve done this myself is the you know the kind of theAffinity bias you know looking for the minimis right we sort of hire people that are like us and.It doesn’t necessarily and it’s often not the case that they’re not the best people for the role they’re just people that we like the most so how you going to reduce all these things and that’s why.You know I designed this process to give people the framework so that they don’t have to think about how to design this process I can give it to them and then we can put candidates through it.There’s also things that you know they can they can do themselves you know there’s lots of there’s lots of different.
[28:00] Testing platforms they could use themselves you know there’s lots of.Sort of help on on questioning you know all they can you know they can reach out to me I’m happy to provide,like free I’ve designed a value scorecard that I give to clients for free that they can just type in their values in there and give them some.Prompts us to open questions to test and they can go and do it you know because that that will help them.Get people who are better matched to their to their values and therefore more likely to stay longer and and add value to the client,totally and for the onboarding we’re looking for something but that’s also something company an entrepreneur would.
[28:51] Think aboutextensively because the better the onboarding the fast and employed can perform its really crucial it sounds like yeah well I show them the desk I give them some work and then they’ll start it usually doesn’t work like that,but now we got now we got to this stage okay this is how we have higher CTO on this is how we you,may or may not use his or her network and then we get into like a hiring policy onboarding yada yada yada and,that is basically the process of growing.Tech team from the little bit more administratively side could you also add a little bit of experience what worked what didn’t work in order to build up a great tag team.Yeah I mean I think I think.You know we talked about some of them right sometimes when you’re as I said sometimes people don’t.
[29:59] They don’t hire objectively right they hire on.
[30:05] A CV you know and they they sort of rely on there they’ve not been able to eliminate bias and give you a good example so.You know just because somebody has been a developer for for eight years doesn’t necessarily mean that person is right for your team.I’m sure that they can that person can code okay but if they’re if they are.Not a you know they’re not a team player if they’re destructive if they’re you know perhaps you know.Negative for you know sort of.
[30:44] You know not bought into the company Vision you know that can be a that can have a sapping effect right and.Yes plus I’ve personally experienced in whatever type of job is out there there people who are basicallyleading their teams the company everything has to go through my desk I have to see everything and that is not how he can manage right a really high performing Tech Team and it also has the side effect that this person who’s in the center of everything,he or she is crucial and they’re also the bottleneck so that is something I am always looking fornot to get done basically I try to splitthis duties as much as possible break them down onto team leader level or even lower and that also this breaking down of tasks and this this.
[31:37] As few as possible reviews but as good as possible reviews that is also something people need to have the skill for it somethingyou can partially learn but possibly it’s just it’s just the personality of people how they would be exactly you know all they andthat’s the challenge that’s it is one of the challenges right if you’ve worked in a large organization the corporate and you’ve used to sort of lots of different.Tax being done by lots of different people then you’re going to find it very difficult and a lot of people do you know coming into a start-up where you’re sort of having to play more than one role,and you need to be proactive and show initiative and sort of where lots of different hats because it just needs to do it.Sometimes you just got to pick that up and not wait for somebody else to do it and.
[32:31] Speaking about that have you what is here experience does it work pretty well if you have employees coming from a carpetto start up or is it better for early middle States startup to actually look for people who are already at startups and yeah that’s a good question I mean I think it.
[32:53] It depends I don’t want to sort of you know there are other success stories for both scenarios and there’s this failures for both scenarios it.
[33:05] You know it really does depend on the person and what there,the mindset is you know and there are people that have worked in corporate and I know I have right where you kind of feel limited right and you’re sort of boxed in and you want to.You like to.To have range and depth and do lots of different things and so you know you thrive in a start-up because you love the adventure and the challenge and the.Variety of that all these other people that drown in it because they’re it’s too much and they don’t know where to start and they they want to be specialized and don’t want to look left or right on something and feel.Overwhelmed so it depends on the candidate and you’ve got to.Dig deep into that in the interview process you know asking them about their.And you know he’s checking your competencies of perhaps you know where they’ve been proactive where they’ve gone outside of their comfort zone and giving you examples to give you the confidence as an employer that,okay so they haven’t had that experience but they could thrive in it whereas somebody that’s worked in startups they know how it works right you know that.Understand what is expected of them so there’s not as much of a risk but.
[34:31] Sometimes you sometimes you need to take the risk right because the town’s worth it.How do you work in a start-up if you’ve never you know you never worked in the startup before right you’ve got to you’ve got everybody has to have a first time sometime any.Famous Last Words last recommendations like inside tips how to really get.Well performing teams together and don’t get me wrong I know a very important part is the boss I’ve heard frequently that people are coming for celery and leaving you to back boss.Yep.Yeah I mean that’s that’s that can often be the case right but you know bosses is one thing but you you know I remember.
[35:21] Somebody saying to me once about okay yes it’s it’s not just about your boss you know you got to manage up and.It’s also on you two to influence and shape that environment and have you.Have you presented feedback to your boss,have you told them about the impact that you know first of all they aware are they aware of the impact that there were two having on you and other people and you know make it,observational right don’t just make it emotional where the facts have you presented the data to them that.
[36:01] On this day or on this occasion this was said.This was the reaction or the outcome you know so that they have an opportunity to see.Casino some people just they’re just not aware and their perception their reality is.Is is very different from you know your perception your reality we all don’t we don’t all think the same so address it rather than,you know suffer in silence because at least with addressing at you have a chance of making it better if you just suffer in silence it’s never going to changeand I actually pretty good wood words and actually people who are suffering in silence they are much more open to be approached by hand just like you,that’s true yeah they they are but as I would what I would say is that if they’re not they also need.
[36:56] They also need to be accountable for how they conduct themselves in the next company because.The same thing could this could be a Serial problem for you if you don’t.You know if you don’t speak your mind and if you don’t you know provide manager can provide feedback to your bosses.Then when they do something wrong they may not be aware and you may get unhappy and you may end up leaving again and.
[37:26] That it’s going to be a you know I think we all need to be accountable for our part in a situation well.
[37:35] Actually this nothing I have to add here will try to wrap up the points he mm you’ve made I think you’ll made a lot of very good points down here in the show notes and you provide us with some linksum for for the leading because in like 30 minutes 35 minutes you cannot really.Build up a good Tech Team but we just wanted to get you started on thinking how to do that,this is the start of a New Journey and most likely will never end but you have to get started at one point in China they say even a 10,000 fully long journey starts with a small step,and then once your first one towards the high-performing Tech T Timthank you very much was a pleasure having you as a guest and everybody who’s left to learn more go down here in the show notes as always there will bekids LinkedIn profile and of course all the links we’ve promised depending on where you listening thisto this or watching this maybe links don’t work just go to dub dub dub startupradio diode forward slash block and look for our interview here.Thank you very much I enjoyed again very much having you as guests here thank you thanks for having me yeah totally my pleasure have a good day bye bye.
[38:56] Pick a bike.
[39:00] Music.
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